The MQL Smackdown

MQL have the operational function of folding into your broader account scoring to consider offline conversions. As long as it’s something that runs in parallel and does not take center stage, and if the board level conversation starts with how many MQLs, you know, something’s not working. This is Revenue Makers, the podcast by Sixense investigating successful revenue strategies that pushed companies ahead. Hey, Adam. Do you listen to the radio? The who? The radio? I listen I will listen to satellite radio. I’m very trendy like that. But I’m not in the car much. They don’t let me out much, but I do something. You know, there’s that term long time listener, first time caller. Yeah. Today’s podcast is kind of like that. We have a long time listener of the podcast who’s been a fan who reached out and said, hey. I have something to say, and I love that she did that. Absolutely. So Nadia Davis, she’s a senior director of revenue marketing and ops at Payette. So she’s in the goven the kinda gov tech world. But she reached out again. And it wasn’t like, hey. I wanna come on your show, but she was talking about MQLs. I don’t think we totally just trash on MQLs, but maybe a little bit. Nada came on. And we were like, let’s have a smack down on MQLs. We didn’t really smack down, but I think we had a really good debate on value of MQLs, how they could be used, how they shouldn’t be used. And the round robin idea, which you came up with with you all here in a minute, was really great just to get some, like, quick little tips. Oh, that was great. I loved it. Well, then let’s just dig in. Let let’s go ahead. Let’s do it. Well, Nadia, welcome. The first time I think that we have had somebody reach out to say, hey. Thanks. Good show. And then bring up a topic. And that topic is MQLs in kind of their place in account based marketing. So thanks for jumping on. I originally said to Simon that maybe this was gonna be a smackdown. Although, I don’t think we generally talk so poorly about MQLs on the show. I don’t think we talk about MQLs with that negative disdain. If we had Kerry Cunningham on from sixth sense, he would have daggers in his eyes. But with that said, we’re gonna talk about how MQLs can fit or not fit an ABM and just how they are in the world. So, Nadia, you reached out. You said, here’s my mindset. Let’s go from there. I’m curious to think, okay, what’s the state of the MQL right now? Well, first of all, thanks for having me. This is a really humbling experience. I’m a listener. I love what you guys are doing. You’ve had amazing people come to your podcast in the past. I mean, I definitely got perspective on many things, just a different way of looking at the same thing, right? And hopefully, the story that I have today will be insightful, kind of, you know, just another way of looking at the same thing for someone else who is listening. And I thought one of the most controversial topics just because there’s so much drama around it. MQL is dead. Now ABM is dead. Like, everything is dead. Right? Like, that’s the path to fame on LinkedIn. Just proclaim something dead and be the the challenger of the status quo. And I feel like maybe MQL, the concept of MQL, the methodology of MQL got trapped a little bit in that when we were kind of all operating from the same playbook of what we had, you know, serious decisions, HubSpot inbound, kind of people taking actions, start looking further, hand them off to the BDR team. And that’s the traditional concept of the MQL. And then we said, no, no, no. Out with the old, in with the new, because you know, the rise of the ABM platforms kind of commanded this new motion in the market. And, like, it had to be dramatic because the entry was so dramatic because it really changed how we think about things. But if I, for a second, if I, like, do the anatomy of the of the MQL methodology, right, if I look at it of what it is, it’s almost like the same circle, but you go around it backwards, like, like, you know, clockwork that you do backwards. So your MQL is essentially a person taking an action or desired set of actions that you’re saying there’s something there. Once the handoff happens, the BDRs or the salespeople start looking at the title fit, then you start qualifying them for the account ICP fit, and then maybe you get to the multithreading like the buyer group research. Right? And this motion, because it’s such a funnel of many, many, many up on top and so few at the bottom, requires a lot of velocity in this continuous processing of, like, inhumane volumes of MQLs. Right? We got to the point where people got disappointed because so many were junk and the conversion rates rates were so low. So we said, okay. What if we go around the same circle but backwards? What if we start with the account, and then we look at all of the insights and the intelligence that we have around the account. Then we qualify the titles within that account who are the right people from the persona group. And then we said, let’s look at the ones that took actions. And then you get to the notion of which ones are MQL, so they will be the first ones I will reach out to because I already did all of my legwork that traditionally used to happen later in the process, but I already did it upfront. So what I found out when I explained to the new salespeople that join an organization that I’m in, the account based marketing this way, they understand. And it doesn’t feel like it’s this radical change of me asking them, forget everything that you knew. I’m gonna teach you marketing one zero one in a new way. Right? When I did that, and I’ve done that in the past, and I see deer in the headlights and the glossed overlook, and they’re like, oh, okay. Here it comes. They’re teaching us life again. Right? It’s not a good collaborative approach. Instead, I tell them, we’re doing everything the way you used to do it, it, but we’re starting backwards. So that way, you don’t have to look at super many MQLs upfront. You’ll just look at a smaller subset of accounts and pick the ones that matter and then dive into the insights at the person level. So flipping the script of sorts. I love that point of view, Nadia. And I I mean, if we go back to why MQLs get such a bad rap, and I believe that in the traditional way or maybe in the most ubiquitous way MQLs were previously defined, they should get a bad rep. Right? Because it was a person doing a number of things, like you said. Right? The challenge is when and there this was the case for for quite a bit of time where MQL was the success criteria for marketing orgs. Right? Should not be the case. And then MQL was really the defining sort of you know, it was a volume game more than a quality game. More MQLs was better because, obviously, you’re gonna measure somebody on something, you know, you’ll wanna get more. That’s just not how buyers buy. Right? And and if you are only focusing on the MQL, you’re missing out on the ninety seven percent of traffic that will not fill out a form, that will not self identify. Right? So those are, I think, all the reasons why the MQL on its own as a solitary metric gets a bad rep, and and I think those things still hold. Now what you said is a very different POV or I think a more refined POV. You’re still starting with your ICP. So you’re focusing on accounts that matter that you could and should be selling to. You’re still focused on personas within that ICP that are potential buyers for you. And then if within those parameters, somebody is self identifying, absolutely, that’s a hugely valid, valuable signal that BDRs and sellers should be all over. That is exactly the way I look at it. And, you know, there’s an interesting kind of parabolic way of looking at it. Like I started I was telling Adam when we were prepping for the episode, I was telling him that I started my academic career. Like, my first undergrad degree was in the legal world. Right? Paralegal, science was something that I was very passionate about. I thought I’d be a lawyer. Then things changed and business school became very attractive. But I always look at the MQLs as this creature that, you know, is being prosecuted in the criminal court with the burden of proof being beyond reasonable doubt. So we are saying, hey, sales team. These are the people beyond reasonable doubt qualified by the marketing jury are the ones that will definitely talk to you because they exhibited the buying behavior that we think meets this burden of proof, which is a very high burden of proof. Right? And everybody has to be a hundred percent yes on this. When reality, maybe this is just civil court. Right? Maybe this is preponderance of the evidence. Based on what we know, these people have exhibited signals, and we suspect that there’s something there. So now, intelligent BDR team, please take them. Please do the research further and apply your human judgment. We’re not treating you as order takers. We rather treat you as do the investigation, be the, you know, researcher on this, and pick the ones that you like and take action on those. So, again, that almost creates a tighter collaboration between the teams because you are trusting the judgment of those who will look at it, and and they know that there’s trust, so they’re more likely to take action on it. I think MQL is signal is kind of the distinction too. Right? Because if you think about and I’m gonna quote some research, and I will probably screw it up. So I’m gonna apologize in advance to, again, Carrie Cunningham. But when you think about buyers, right, if you go to our buyer experience report, it’s something that we put out the last two years. So much goes on the buyer journey before there’s any level of engagement. The data that Carrie and team found was the first person the first company that’s engaged with and doesn’t mean that you have to be the first one there. But if I’m a buyer and I reach out and I engage, the first company that I work with generally wins a huge amount of time. But one of the really interesting things, I think, is how you take action on MQLs because it used to be, hey. It’s an MQL because they did thirty seven white paper downloads in this webinar and that type of thing. Oh, they must want a meeting. They must wanna buy. And if you look at the way this research and just buyers in general, if you go to an MQL and be like, hey. Let’s book a meeting. If that MQL and for the most part, they’re early. They’re doing research. They’re trying to understand what’s out there. They just need to be with more research or with more information. They’re trying to learn their way through their so MQL is signal, which I really think is a really good way to think about it. And then what are you actually doing with the MQL? Should the MQL be, like, you know, reaching out for a meeting? No. If they’re early stage, which likely most of them are, you know, nine hundred percent of buyers are not in market, and let’s not realize that out of math, only ninety five percent are out they’re out of market, five percent are in market. Enabling those folks. Right? So they’ve shown some signs of life, but just because they’ve shown signs of life, don’t just barrage them with one offer of, like, hey. Let’s get together or go see a demo. Like, oh, I saw you were interested. Enable them more. It’s a signal that there’s some activity, but jumping straight to the meeting or jumping straight to you must be ready to buy, I think that’s another area where it just gets messy because I mean, I don’t know how many times I’ve been reached out to. I probably was. I I literally did one thing on a website, and there’s no way I’m an MQL. If I am, then you need to go back to your scoring model. I’m just doing research. If you send me more information that’s helpful, great. But, like, don’t jump right to, hey. Let’s meet. Or, hey. Here’s a demo. Or, like, give me your credit card. You’re ready to buy. And I think that’s another area too. It’s like and then Carrie calls it the MQL timing dilemma. But that to me is also you know, when you think about especially at account based marketing, you’re trying to get in front of these these accounts. You’re trying to build that trust using an MQL as a signal. And this is not turning into a smack down, which I’m getting very disappointed about because we’re not starting to fight about things. But that was what I’m just thinking from a timing perspective too, I think, is is a big one. You know, the most illustrative part about what you were talking about, a person taking action, so surely that’s going to be someone that that is an MQL and ready for the handoff, was in my previous role where I was within the IT space. It was an IT automation orchestration company. And the IT space, there’s a lot of development teams that sit in India. There is a lot of smaller companies that are trying to build a tool within that space and then break into the US market from India. So we would have a lot of people from Indian universities coming to the website doing all the right things, researching all the right pages on the website, right? And then they would even fill out a form. They didn’t care. They would get that automation guide for whatever enterprise. And, you know, we would get all of those people coming in. And the sales team got really, really upset because they start recognizing, you know, it stamps the country. So why am I looking at this? So I think applying that filter of the account fit is super, super critical. There’s one scenario that, if you guys are okay, I will mention, where the MQL does play a role without the account filter. And this is where you create your list of target accounts for the year. Everybody knows, takes a village. Everybody has to approve. Everybody has their POV. Right? There’s some FOMO going on. What if we leave this one out and this is the one that’s gonna buy? So you build your list. You finally agree to cap it at eight hundred accounts, nine hundred accounts. You go and start marketing to that list. But what if your crystal ball is wrong? Like, what if you missed truly that one that the sales guy was truly upset about and you just couldn’t fit it in because the dollars are not finite. Right? So I do have a report within my go to market team, and that’s an MQL report. In all honesty, I’ve been running ABM for ten years. I’ve watched the rise of the ABM platforms, and I went through all of the challenges and tribulations of switching the way my mind works. And I’m a believer. I’m convinced and converted. But in this specific case, when we do have the list of accounts that we may have not guessed to a hundredth percentile, there might be others showing the behavior. So that MQL threshold and in my world, it’s scoring based. So I want people to score, like, a number of actions. Maybe that’s the signal that this account needs to be pulled into the target account list. Because it’s never a static thing. Like, I think some of us may get conditioned into the target account list being this idol that you worship throughout the year. And as the year finishes, you go to a new idol, right? But it’s a dynamic living and breathing creature. And it’s actually the, the hated MQL. And I’m sorry, Carrie, but you might be that hated MQL, but actually tells you wink, wink, I’m over here. Look at my account. I did the things. Go multi thread. Right? So there’s some discretionary element. Some discretion. And I think that’s where, you know, when people talk or smack down in absolutes, that’s where all of sort of this challenge arises. It’s a leading indicator. It’s a signal. Absolutely. And and, Nadia, I’m hundred percent with you. Right? We we did a whole episode on the ICP and how often we refine our ICP at six cents. Right? We have meetings every two weeks. Our ICP is dynamic. And so as you start to see signal, you should be capitalizing on it, whether it’s adding those accounts into your ICP or your target account list, whether it is setting certain rules of engagement for your BDR, whether it’s, adjusting scoring rules. Right? Those are things that great marketing teams and marketing operations teams should be doing all the time. But, again, I think it’s it’s a leading indicator. It can’t be your only North Star. It can’t be your only litmus test, and it can absolutely not be your sort of success criteria as a marketing org. Right? Marketing needs to be driving pipeline, qualified pipeline, and revenue. And so this should be part of the mix, but obviously not the entire mix. The other point I was gonna say is related to some of maybe bad behavior that focus on MQL creates. Simplest, I think, thing that comes to mind is, let’s put everything behind a form because we need to capture capture the information. We need to capture the signals. Right? To Adam’s point, these are signals. And if folks are on your website and they wanna be educated and they wanna learn more, we should make it really, really easy for them to do that. And so providing educational content, top of funnel content, so providing educational content, top of funnel content, awareness content, even buying guides to some extent, I would say, in a way that they don’t have to self identify. Right? Tools like Six Senses will let you know that somebody from this account is consuming this piece of content. And if it is a known contact in your marketing automation or CRM, it’ll even let you know who. Right? So take advantage of the tech, and don’t, you know, be that guy that says nice to meet you. Would you like to get married? Which is what we do with the MQL. Right? Thanks for filling out the downloading your white paper. You wanna buy? They might say yes to a proposal, but that is different. Better be Valentine’s, right, to create the mood. But, you know, there is another element to it when we look at MQLs and kind of the the functional role that they play because ultimately, it’s not a measure of all things. It’s a means to an end, to an operational end. And, Samah, I love your background. I know you come from the world of analytics and charts and graphs and reports. It’s pretty much my world, so I very much side with you. You know, my marketing background in education was rather classical. Like, I went through all of the, you know, undergrad and then grad school majoring in marketing. And when you come out of all that schooling, you come out with a very strong academic kind of theoretical background, but none of those schools and I loved every single class that I had, none of those schools teach you the applied marketing, which kind of points you towards looking for a methodology that somebody developed. Because when your boss tells you we’re gonna deliver on these things, like, that’s all you know. Right? That’s your applied marketing and how you’re exposed to it. You’re not there to develop something new unless you’re an analyst within the world of Forrester or Gartner, and that’s what you’re working on. Right? So that’s why we tend to gravitate to what’s out there, and MQL was one of those methodologies. But I feel like the thing that really cast this, you know, somewhat negative light on the MQL versus ABM world is the operational piece, piece, that layer of operations. Because when I look at or or talk to people who had an ABM program that failed, the answer is usually, we tried it, didn’t work. Then you start peeling the layers, and you’ll realize that they dove into it off the deep end and totally neglected how much more ops support it requires to put together a really strong operational ABM program. Because back to what you guys always say, it’s, you know, ideas are great, but it’s the execution that makes it or breaks it. And people really underestimated how much ops it requires to connect all the dots, to integrate all the pieces. Because you can run programs all day, but if they did not make it into dashboards and better in your CRM or better in your Tableau, that didn’t happen. Nadia, I think what you’re saying and what I fully agree with is there’s an operational piece, of course, but there’s also a huge change management piece related to moving from pure MQLs to ABM. Right? And all of us, I think, on this podcast right now have done this in the real world, applied, right, ABM principles. And the first way that I applied ABM, this was, gosh, almost nine years ago now when ABM wasn’t even really a thing or as as broadly known as it is now. It was as simple as just changing the lead scoring. So it was like, hey, BDRs. We’re not gonna change your your workflow. We’re just gonna change the types of MQLs that you’re getting. So rather than one person who’s doing six things being a hot, hot lead that you should go after, maybe six people from the same account doing one thing each is more indicative of, hey. There’s some signal here. There’s some smoke here. This is a great account. There’s multiple people engaged. And so we just changed the scoring algorithm using tools like Sixense that we previously didn’t have insight into. And that helps with the change management because you’re sort of making a a small change. You’re not really rocking the world of of the sellers, of the BDRs, and of the marketers, to be honest as well. Right? Let’s adapt our signals to the fact that we have more information now, better insight into who is engaging with our content and and consuming it, and let’s prioritize those and see. And when you implement changes like that, when you kind of guide folks through this change management process because it’s not gonna happen overnight, you can start to build on wins. You can start to see what’s working and adjust accordingly. And so the change management part of it that you highlighted is just critical. I wonder if there’s any specifics that either of you have have seen just work really well when you’re making that initial shift. You totally, totally stole what exact what I wasn’t talking about, but that’s okay. Because this is a conversation that I’ve had personally a lot with our with six sense customers because, again, it goes back to change management. Yeah. And some of the things that you mentioned, like, six people doing one thing, some of this is tech dependent. Right? And, of course, you know, there’s noise on the the on LinkedIn that if you buy ABM tech, you have no strategy. But you can have a strategy when you have tech, but we can talk about that for another day. We find somebody we can smack down with. But Mhmm. That will be a smack down. Yeah. I think, Nati, you said earlier, like, ICP fit. I mean, that’s, like, right off the bat. Right? You can layer that in. That’s not gonna require massive technology. Right? If you’ve got a target account list, like, boom, immediately. And it doesn’t have to be like they have to be that you could use it as a weight, you know, add additional points, kind of that type of thing. Simon, to your point, you know, if you’ve got technology that can understand that there’ve been multiple anonymous visitors from the same account. So sort of like at a buying committee is alive kind of level of, like, okay. We know there’s been anonymous activities in multiple places or for multiple folks. So those those two off the bat, and because I was when I did this in the real world, I’m gonna say the real world before, you know, I was in the ABM Tech Mart company. That’s exactly what we did. We brought that in. And the interesting thing about it was our BDRs were not booking any more meetings than they were before, but those meetings started converting twenty, thirty, forty percent greater because they were starting to catch people that were at different stages. They weren’t all early buyers. They were people that were later on. They were showing a lot of intent. Again, intent terms in your MQL as well. Are they are they firing on some of those? So, like, the rethinking the model itself, and I’m just totally taking what Simon said, but that was that was on my mind as well. And I’m not sure if there’s some of the things that you’ve looked at or or or tried to do. You know, the biggest thing about change management and the things that I did wrong at some of my roles when trying to bring an ABM tool or build out an ABM centric go to market motion was that I was trying to give the sales teams, because the sales team clearly is a critical piece, that’s the last mile, right, to engagement with a client. Too much marketing education of the how and the why that they really didn’t need. What they needed instead was a very clear workflow. These are the people that got a lot of asks from the CS team, from the product team, you know, use this, use that. The sales leadership wants them to fill out certain scorecards. Like their day is busy. And I was adding another layer of like, keep this in your head, use this logic. Right? They did not really want it, and that’s when I would get those deer in the headlights kind of glossed over books. But what I realized, if I create a workflow and it stays in the same place where they always live, whether it’s your CRM, or, you know, if it integrates into their inbox and their email, that makes the life so much easier because they understand. These are the five things I do. These are the five clicks I make where the data is there. Now the question becomes, how do you bring all that data into one place? Because I love six cents. I think you guys, you know, you’re a huge player in the market. You define this category and expanded it. Your marketing is fantastic. But I always feel like the resistance within organizations to this is that people want to know people. Right? And we are offering them something that started with a reverse account IP lookup and kind of building based on that. So they’re like, oh, this is great, but wait a minute. At the end of the day, I need people. And I want those people to have done other things before I’m gonna, you know, spend my energy chasing them. And this is where this concept, the the ABM middleware comes into place, and this is totally the operational side of things. Right? We’re going into the weeds. How can I bring what I have going through my Marketo, through my HubSpot, this MQL level, people level stuff, and my account level stuff that I have this powerful tool, the ABM platform, that gives me all the insights into one place? And how can I figure out and model the scoring from individual people and the score that I’m given from the account at the account level engagement? And to me, that has been the biggest challenge. But once you solve it, and trust me, I have built so many Salesforce flows. I have talked to so many, like, third party tools, and usually tools don’t like me because my first question is, let’s go to the settings tab. Can you show me your integrations tab? And they’re like, we we want to give you the benefit. What what you’re going to have? I’m like, I totally get it, but I need to understand how this is going to wire in. But I was super excited when the ABM category came about. Like first time I saw Sixth Sense, I really felt warm and fuzzy and said, I’m like, somebody sees me. Like, we can do this thing. Right? It was amazing. The second time I felt like that, this is many years forward, is when I saw attribution tools that evolved and kind of got the CDP foundation behind them. And now I could have this attribution layer. I could run crazy wonderful orchestrations with my ABM tool and marry that to all of the offline stuff, which, I mean, I’m currently in the gov tech world. We do more offline stuff. And I’m sure regulated industries or larger companies deal with that. You have more offline stuff, stuff, conversions at events and whatnot, than you have with the digital journey. And how do you marry the two? So, like, you know, this category is evolving, right? Somebody predict the death of CDPs. But tools use CDPs. Like CalibreMind is one of those that I got really excited about because I could marry my ABM platform to one hundred and eight events that we go to. Now think about it, one hundred and eight in person events. This is list upload galore, right? And then you have all of those individual contacts that need to get scored. So I think it’s, again, back to the operational foundations. Like, if you do not solve for that and you dive into, like, what the benefit could be, you sell it into the org, and people will ask you the question, okay. Well, what does this mean for me? What does this mean for my workflow? And you better be ready to answer that. I have an idea. Let me know if you’re gonna run with this or not. We’ve got pretty strong POVs on how to work MQLs, what they mean, and kind of best practices. What if we did, like, round robin, like, one statement that is absolutely true about MQLs, and then when we keep going, like, one, two, three, one, two, three, couple times? I’m game. You’re game? Alright. MQLs should be a leading indicator, but not the ultimate goal of a marketing department. Adam. MQLs do not mean, hey. Let’s go book a meeting. MQLs should not be at the the top of your marketing to sales deliverable dashboard. MQLs should be worked quickly. There’s a speed to lead portion for BDRs, but reps should always multithread into the account. MQL have the operational function of folding into your broader account scoring to consider offline conversions. That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. We’ll let you have your MQLs. Otherwise, maybe not. Take them away. We’re coming for them. Yeah. Yeah. As long as it’s something that runs in parallel and does not take center stage and if the board level conversation starts with how many MQLs, you know, something’s not working. Well, not the smackdown that I hoped it would be. There was an episode I don’t know when this a while ago or it was just Simon and I. Was it the attribution episode? I’m not sure which one it was. I thought we were gonna have our own smackdown, and it didn’t happen. So I will continue to hunt for a SmackDown. Maybe I have some aggression need to get out, but apparently, it’s not Hey. If there’s a listener out there that wants a SmackDown, just just like Nadia, reach out. Let’s do it. We might not say yes. My gauntlet. I like it. Why not? That was alright. That was alright. Well, Nadia, thank you so much. So we have a question now. This is gonna completely throw you because I didn’t tell this to you in advance. But we have a question. You know this because you’ve heard you’ve heard the episodes now. What is the most ridiculous thing that you’ve been asked to do in your career? Could be both positive or negative. Yeah. I feel like I had some insider intel on this because I did listen to your previous episodes, and I knew this was coming. And I could have totally mentioned the time early in my career when I was asked to calculate ROI on T shirts. This was the business that got a lot of T shirts, like, a lot of T shirts. Right? I don’t think it’s the most exciting anymore because somebody beat that one. So we were at the year end planning event, in person, conference room, twelve people from various functions within the business. We’re planning go to market for next year. And when we’re talking about, like, budget distribution and how marketing is gonna support the sales team, the sales team asks for twice the events, in person events, for the following year compared to the year prior. And to me, we’re not talking, like, from four events to eight events. We’re talking from fifty to a hundred. So that’s a lot of events. Right? And the reason they asked for so many is because their deliverable goal became higher. Like, they wanted to hit a certain number of net new opportunities. And I’m sitting in the room knowing, because I did all the data research, our opportunities do not start at events. The data that I have, my first touch attribution does not start at events. It’s somewhere in the digital world. Right? And yet I’m being asked to dedicate a huge portion of my budget to events. And I asked the sales team, I said, well, maybe if you guys maybe currently I cannot attribute certain things because you did not enter every single lead that you talked to at an event, at a dinner, in the hallway. And my best salespeople would catch people coming out of the bathroom, like, that was their hunting ground, right? Catch people out of the bathroom, have conversation. Like, maybe those do not make it into the list. That’s why I cannot attribute this. And the sales leader looks at me and goes, aren’t there tools out there where you can, like, get all the names and put them into CRM without us having to create a spreadsheet? And I’m sitting there, the operational mind that I am thinking, are you talking about some kind of a love child of Siri and ZoomInfo? Or like Alexa and Apollo where something is listening to your conversations on the cell phone, does the camera matching, you know, finds the LinkedIn profile, and then in the armor of an AI agent, kinda sends that contact into your CRM and attributes it all the right way. He didn’t think that far. He just wondered in the world of sci fi and AI and everything, surely there’s got to be a tool that does this. I’m like, if somebody started breeding Alexa and ZoomInfo, like, that would be the new business model, right? But to me, that was not it. But he was completely serious that his MarTech support partner had to find a tool that would allow people from just having a conversation offline find a path to get the first name, last name, email address into the CRM. So Now I will say ops people are magicians, but maybe not quite to that extent yet. Not quite to that extent. No. Those are both good. I do like the ROI of t shirts, though. I think I’m gonna use that from now on. I’m just gonna be like, what’s the ROI of our t shirt? But Yeah. The no was not an answer on that one. Well, Nadia, that we could go on. I think this was a great topic. It wasn’t the smackdown, but I think we got some great we got some good outcomes and some good takeaways from here that a lot of people hopefully will will create some value. So thank you so much. You’ve been listening to Revenue Makers. Do you have a revenue project you were asked to execute that had wild success? Share your story with us at six cents dot com slash revenue, and we might just ask you to come on the show. And if you don’t wanna miss the next episode, be sure to follow along on your favorite podcast app.