Ideas Are Easy, Execution Is Everything

I love that you’re seeing obviously more than double win rates, but were there any sort of gotchas or it was a resistance initially from your internal teams particularly sellers. I’d love to say, yeah, yeah, it was easy. Yeah. No. We had no problems, but that would be the biggest lie in the world. And I think the big thing I learned was, like, got to map out the workflow first and foremost. Get the workflow, the process nailed down, try and test some of that if you can before you try and put the system in. I think we tried to do it a little bit around. So That lost us a bit of time. I think we got there in the end. This is revenue makers, the podcast by six cents, investigating successful revenue strategies that pushed companies ahead. Hey, Adam. Yes. Who are we talking to today? Well, we’ve got I always say great guests. I’m not gonna say it’s all I’d ever say because we do really have amazing guests. Alex Ollie, who is the founder and CRO of Reachdesk, and has a really interesting perspective on things as a founder, as a sales leader. We’re gonna talk to him about some big stakes that he’s put on the ground for twenty twenty four. Love it. And not just that. He’s gonna talk about how he was able to more than double win rates for his company, which who doesn’t wanna learn more about that? I’ll sign up for that. And then as a CRO, How he actually recognizes that marketing is driving eighty percent of the buyer’s journey. So unique perspective, and by the way, did we mention he’s a lawyer? Amazing. Just to have a sales leader with that perspective talking about transitioning to working in market accounts and the relationship with marketing and sales, just some really good conversation. I think some really good actionable insights for the audience. So you ready to jump in? Let’s do it. Alex, thanks so much for joining us. Really excited to have you on the show today. Before we dive in, we talked about you, but give us the who you are story and what you’re up to these days. Who you are story. It could be a long one. I’ll give you the short version. We do have forty minutes, Alex. Okay. Fine. I’ll give you the medium version then. I’ve been a founder of a business. It’s the first company I founded. So I’m currently the CRO and co founder of Reachdesk. I’ve been building that for five and a half years now. God, that feels like a long time. We’re an all band engagement platform, so we help companies really connect with their prospects and their customers using direct mail and gifting and integrating that within their existing workflow and taking it to their tech stack. So you can measure the ROI. But, yeah, I’ve been in b to b SAS for the best part of fourteen years now. And two of the companies I joined, I p o.’d, one other So if I can do either of those to reach desk, I’ll be very happy. I think the impetus for our conversation is earlier this year, You put something on LinkedIn that was pretty, like, I would say bold, but it was, like, just putting it out there. Like, this is what we’re gonna do this year. Kind of your big bets and where your focus and all that. So it’s encouraging to see, and it’s refreshing to see just, you know, a leader to say, like, this is where we’re gonna throw down. So just kinda want to start from there. Like, where do those come from that sort of inspired you to just put it all out there, and we can maybe dive into the individual ones. So we’d love to tell them what inspired you just to do it. Don’t think anything inspired me to do it. In fact, I’d probably get into more trouble than it’s worth because my master human What? We literally just agreed that. You know, you’re telling, like, I’ll compare gonna see. I’m like, don’t worry. It’ll be fine. I just like to share. I’m not, like, a building in public guy. You know, there are some people that, like, we’re going clear and they’re gonna share everything. I’m not brave enough to do that because there’s a lot of bad stuff. It happens that maybe I’m not willing to share with stuff that may be confidential, but I do that mainly so that I can sometimes just, like, brain dump and get people’s feedback. Most of the time, it’s like, oh, that makes sense. Let’s talk about that. And sometimes, actually, it starts conversations, but I think the post you’re probably referring to is the one where I was like, look, in twenty twenty four, these are the big things that, for us to reach us with folks on. And I think the three big things I referred to was our product tools. So I believe that the best prospects will have seen a demo of our product. They’d probably be quite familiar with reached before they buy from us or before they even speak to a salesperson. So I just want that to be everywhere so that people can go, oh, I was looking into products. Maybe I’m not a good fit for that. Company, or maybe, oh, that’s better. I didn’t have no idea reach desk has, like, an events product or analytics. They might find new stuff. So big believer in that and, like, helping companies buy rather than just selling. Huge one, which I’m sure, captures your attention of Focusing on in market. I believe the best accounts are the ones that are really showing that intent that you can match signals to and then really power forward with your go to market motion by not selling to cold accounts and really focusing on those ones that are are in buying that stage. And then the other bit I was really referring to was around, like, events. Now I’m gonna be very honest, and I’ve offended quite a few people by saying this recently. So that I don’t wanna go to another really bang average, boring dinner in the same hotel that I’ve been to five other providers with the same food. I feel like all these round table dinners and, like, dinner events have just been done the same. We’re gonna do different events. We’re gonna do things that you know, people will remember. And I’m gonna share something which I hope my team don’t hate me for, but one of our big value propositions is things are, like, broken, and that we could help fix it. So Why wouldn’t we get CMOs to do like a pottery for us drinking champagne to, like, fix the stuff that’s broken that they’re gonna remember and it’s something new that they’ve done? So we wanna be, like, the carlsberg of events, like the really, really good set the bar high, but doesn’t have to be crazy expensive to give something new to people. So Those are three things that I’m really keen on accomplishing. Let’s see if we nail them this year. Love it. I think sometimes it is obviously a little bit daunting to put it out there, but it also brings the clarity, like three focus areas for the year. Like, the team can rally behind that and do it. So I applaud you for it. You were right. The one that did catch our attention was the fact that in market accounts are really where you wanna focus. And I heard that you doubled your win rate last year by adjusting the go to market motion to really focus on in market. So My question to you is, what does end market mean to you? And then what was your playbook? Cause that is not an easy transition to make. And a lot of companies recognized that they should be moving that way, but the thinking about it and then doing it are two very different things. So It’s a big question, but love to hear your thoughts. It’s just like years of me trying to figure this out. I’d say I started testing the waters with what I would call a cap based marketing about eight, nine years ago. And I can’t remember where I heard remember someone talked about this concept really focusing on these warm accounts and, like, trying to just really prioritize those. And I was like, how do you do that? The way I thought about it then was choosing those accounts, why is the map in your ICP serving ads to them and seeing engagement, but that’s all I could really achieve. And for years and years, I was like, I need to find a way to make sure that we are prioritizing the accounts that are showing the best signals to us. Because I believe that if you get them at the right time as we all know, your ability to win is far higher, but it wasn’t until January that we started using six cents that actually allowed us to, like, really get that into our motion. You know, we’re fairly sizable sales team with BDRs, AEs, account managers, scaling to, like, systematize that. That’s really, really hard. So the philosophy, actually, for us, reached us, we have this first of the party mindset. The way I used to think about it was like, okay. Maybe someone submitted a demo request. Right? For marketing, that was at your gold standard demo requests. Really high intent when I was speaking to them. I started realizing that the buyer journey had changed drastically. And we were probably missing out, and I hated the conversations where but I’d find out that people were evaluating one of our competitors and then they’d move forward with them. I’m like, why didn’t you consider us Yeah. You guys kinda got there a bit late. I was like, no. No. No. No. No. Let’s stop that. Let’s try and get there first until it’s fair to the party mindset. Was really important to us. It was like, we believe that we can drive the decision criteria and influence that within the sales process. If we get there first and if we wait too late, we’re probably gonna be, like, stack wrecked really low and our ability to win probably will reduce. That’s just one part of the thesis. I’m not gonna give you the whole thing. But to answer your question, like, the concept of in market is really moving away from this static territory based list approach, where it’s that history territory go after it, try and go ball the ocean see how much you can get to like this dynamic. I’ve got a dynamic territory, which is way smaller, which allows people to focus and prioritize where they’re gonna spend their efforts, And when we did that, our win rates were more than double edge, particularly if you think about it from, like, BDRs, the way I did it, like, seven or eight years ago is BDRs would have this list. There are, like, five, six hundred accounts that you’re gonna go after. And that you just kind of go through it one by one and then probably refresh top of the list or the list refreshed. Now it’s like, here are your thirty to fifty accounts you’re gonna go after. These are the signals that they are showing to you. Here’s why you’re prioritizing them. And when you look at our work rate, so that’s the accounts that you go after to the the qualified pipelines that they’re creating, Scentages were were they were a bit higher, not dramatically, but when you look at the actual close rate from qualified to close one, it was through the roof. And so we literally, I went to our CEO, and as I’ve seen this information, I’ve literally built two funnels of, like, cold versus in market. And when I look at the progression of deals, the speed on our win rate, it’s more than double. And so we decided, like, that is our strategy. That’s what we’re gonna put everything behind. Love it. Really, really great way to look at it. I think you Simon and I have the opportunity to speak to a lot of marketing teams a lot of sales teams, customers of six cents, prospects, and so forth. And there’s always sort of two themes that emerge at least for me when folks are trying to make a transition to I don’t wanna say old school because plenty of marketing teams are still doing lean gen and they’re still successful to the extent and so forth. And you sit in a unique spot being a founder and a sales leader because we’re talking to customers that can’t get sales to come along for the ride, so to speak, when we’re talking to a marketing team. And then two, where you talked about the demo request or just MQLs and leads and all that, is sort of like the warm blanket for marketing teams and getting them to rip it off or to make that transition is challenging. And then even up to the board level, I’d love to hear your perspective on. As you’re talking to investors and your board and so forth, was this a transition that felt like a transition or, like, you know, do we just for five plus years of reach test? Was there a moment of, like, okay, we have to change or this sort of evolved? And if there was, how have you, I guess, taken the board along for the ride, in that conversation? Yeah. Let’s talk about taking the board along for the ride because that’s not an easy one. Look, I think most board members will acknowledge that they are not most of them are finances. Right? That’s their role. Some of them have been, and that’s quite rare. But the to answer your question, it wasn’t just like we’ve been doing this since day one. And we’re still learning. Alright. We’re still trying to perfect it up, but it was a transition. I think the thing that drove it was the market conditions, If I’m honest with you, this is back in late twenty twenty two. It was when we really started going harder at this. It was around efficiency. Like, how did we get are spend more efficient and more effective. I’m just being very transparent. That was a big driver of, like, okay, we can’t bore the ocean. There’s not as much money to go around for what we’re selling. We’ve gotta be quite precise with how we do things, the growth at all costs, times have gone, sadly. They were fun. But maybe a good thing that they that that we are in the world, think that’s what really spurred it on, to be honest with you, and so we had to go harder at it, and it became, like, the big thing. And it became a bit of a dare I say a bet, but I call them big things. I don’t call them bets. Like, these are the big things that we need to do. I remember going into a board meeting and saying, this is what we’re gonna do. And I was kinda met with these blank stares of, like, What did he just say in market? Did did did because that mean nothing to anyone? It’s like, I’m not saying that there are morons or idiots or anything. Like, not at all. It’s just for many people, this is quite new even if you’re a go to market practitioner. But if you’re at the board level and and not many of your portfolio companies are doing this, this is quite a new thing to have to understand, and you’re measuring something different, you’re measuring slightly different things in different ways. And I think I spoke for about forty five minutes. The board meeting is probably in about two hours, so my fifteen, twenty minute slots tend to something a lot longer, but I remember thinking if I don’t get this right now, this could be really, really tricky. And I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was really around that analogy of let’s start fishing in smaller pools with spears rather than trample the ocean. And that’s my job is to try and pick those pools. And that was the analogy that really resonated, but I had to say these things we’re gonna measure now. And, actually, I’m gonna start putting marketing on having more focus on the closed one revenue and what that’s tied back to and the initiatives whereas before we were like, trade shows, let’s do all of them. Spend loads on the widespreads of digital campaigns, and let’s just do loads, and now I had to retract it. And I realized I was saying we’re gonna do way fewer things. I think the impact would be much greater. Yeah. It’s interesting. Right? You hit on this in your first answer around just the way buyers buy has changed. Right? One of your big bets for twenty twenty four is, again, people will have known or should have seen your product. Before they’re actually talking to a rep. Fires are more savvy. And so the more you can capitalize on those signals, and bring focus both from a marketing perspective, by the way, and the sales perspective. Right? Marketing focusing their dollars on accounts that they can truly move the needle with, warming them up to the point where sales is ready to jump in. I mean, it brings such an alignment across that go to market organization. So it makes sense in theory. I love that you’re seeing obviously more than double win rates, but were there any sort of gotchas or it was a resistance initially from your internal teams, particularly sellers where, oh, you’re no longer working that list of five hundred. I’m making up a number, but here’s forty. I’d love to say, yeah, it was easy. Yeah. And then we had no problems, but that would be the biggest lie in the world. Suppose the way I think about it is, like, what would I do differently if I did this again? I think I would have probably got sales leaders, like, front line managers on board earlier with making decision on things like providers and the workflow. And I think the big thing I learned was like, you gotta map out the workflow first almost. Get the workflow, the process nailed down, try and test some of that if you can before you try and put the system in. I think we tried to do it the other way around. So that lost us a bit of time. I think we got there in the end. My philosophy is that salespeople AEs or AMs that they should be doing this themselves too. There was a bit of we’re waiting on marketing to generate inbounds and BDRs to, like, kind of tier up for us. I think I underestimated that if you had that DNA in your team, and there isn’t, like, much of an onus on salespeople and sellers who are actually closing deals to do more of this themselves. You’re gonna get a pushback. So we kind of had to reset the expectations a little bit and say, by the way, this is your job. This is your job. Okay. If you don’t do this, then maybe you’re in the wrong place. But we expect you to do this now. But here’s how it’s gonna benefit you. Here’s the hypothesis. We believe that if you focus on these fifteen to twenty a time when you do these things, and we will train you on it. This is what we expect to see. And we kinda just went, here it is. Go get it. And we didn’t do enough of the education. We didn’t get enough buy in early enough. We’re there now. I think we lost a bit of time, and that was a big learning for me. Again, that’s another trend to change management that’s different for every company because some it’s a transition, some it’s in my own experience. We literally were like, okay. We’re making this change and We didn’t flip a switch, but we made substantial changes in a very short period of time. We rolled it out to a BDR team first, and then we moved on to our a team and It was a smaller company so it was a bit easier, but the change management in the people part of this thing is not to be underestimated at all. And I think it will get spooked out and all sorts of different things. So I wanted to switch topics and get a little geek out here on product tours. I remember, even years and years ago, a screenshot tour was the cool thing and when you could click through and all that. And this is something we’re gonna we ourselves wanna dig in more to as well as other using the product to sell, getting people exposed to the product. But between that and the way buyers are buying now, the availability of reviews and just like the way people are getting information now, it’s almost like selling the term of being a salesperson. Eventually, it’s gonna become, like, the term is facilitator more than anything else. Right? Because you’re sort of stripping away. Yeah. And I don’t say you’re stripping away the sales part because obviously there’s so many intangibles of moving a deal forward. But, like, how do you think The demo’s exposure to product is changing the way sellers sell and where they sit and what’s their role overall? Like, how do you see that changing? Yeah. I think it’s something else that I think I get into trouble because I I start to offend people here, but it’s changed. Right? There’s a theme here, by the way, Alex. You seem to get in trouble a lot. I’m just paying. I think it’s from growing up having a twin and me and my brother just getting in trouble a lot. So there were there were no rules. But there is a theme, and I think that’s fair. I started sending, like, nearly fifteen years ago, people would barely look at your website. Perhaps you’d turn up with your big presentation. They had to get through, like, thirty slides, you didn’t have, like, multiple stages and multiple people in person. There wasn’t as much, like, social proof required. So it was, like, salespeople were I mean, they did I think they did a eighty percent of the job, and now I think they’re doing twenty percent of it. So here’s what I think. I think buyers are more worried about messing up. There’s not this fear of messing out. There’s a fear of messing up. Yeah. And they’re worried that they’re gonna make the wrong decision, and it’s probably gonna cost them their job or their reputation, or it’s not gonna provide the ROI that they promised, and that’s risky. And what sales people, therefore, have to do is to validate the decision because most buyers are gonna show up and say, pretty sure I’m gonna buy a reach desk. I’m pretty sure I just wanna make sure, and I wanna make sure I’m doing the due diligence. And so, asana’s job is to be as helpful as possible. It’s to be as transparent as possible and to be expedient as possible with the information that they deliver to people so that their buyer is making the right decision. And sometimes that means that the salesperson has to turn them away and say, Actually, you know what? We might not be a good fit for you. That builds the number one thing that buyers want, which is trust, because they trust you, they’re far more likely to buy from you. Right? So my advice to sales leaders and to sellers now is to build genuine with your buyers, give them the information, and only sell to those people that can actually buy from you a good fit for you. If you do that, you will be successful. If you try and force it through, they always be closing kind of mentality and tactics. Trying to just get through the deal. I don’t think you’re gonna be successful because first, it’s gonna be damaging for the brand. Word-of-mouth is so powerful. We talk about dark social a lot. I don’t know if that answers the question, but that’s that’s my guidance at the moment. It’s like, be as helpful as possible, be as transparent as possible, follow-up fast, but focus on building trust and giving people the truth. That’s how you’re gonna be the most successful. And I’m seeing this in our team. I endeavor to hire people who are just transparent, who are just really, really helpful people. Who is smart, who understand the industry and the actual pains that customers have, and see if they can help solve a problem. If they can’t, say, hey, I can’t help you. That’s great guidance. And I think, especially in the SaaS world, you can close that initial deal, but you’re just selling churn if it’s not the right fit if your customer successful. And so a lot of what you just said goes back to understanding your ICP and really refining it and defining it How do you, obviously, and your role as co founder and CRO? How do you go about defining the ICP? Who’s at the table when you’re doing that? I imagine marketing has a voice, sales, has a voice. It really is that overall go to market team. So just talk a little bit more about that. I believe marketing owns your ideal customer profile. I don’t believe it’s anyone else. The reason I say that is because I think marketing is now in a position where it can You know, they own eighty five percent to buy a journey. And and the rest of it, actually, but eighty five percent even before that spoken to a salesperson, so marketing should be everywhere. If you’re in a marketing team where you just type generating leave at the top of funnel, that might be old schoolers. I think you described it, Adam, but I agree with you. Marketing has the most visibility of what our buyers do. You feel like you don’t have that, go looking for it. So I think marketing should own it. That’s how we do it. That’s how I’ve seen it work in many other businesses. What’s how we do it? I’ve helped companies shift it away because it often sits with sales because they think they know best. They want to control it because they qualify opportunities. But they don’t have as much information available to them. And it’s okay if it’s different, the sales needs to have a seat at the table. RevOps should be deeply entrench, you know, it should almost be like the impartial party because it can be friction between sales and marketing. They can. Right? But they should be the ones who bring forward the data. And looking at things like not just, like, which deals are moving throughout sales cycle the fastest with the highest close rate and ACV, but which customers renew it. Like, why? What are our top twenty percent? What what are the behaviors they do? Why do they adopt the product more? Get that in there, and that’s how I think about refining ICP. In fact, that’s where I start. Before you even think about acquisition is the retention of customers because net retention lifetime value and payback periods are the unit economics that drives success in this day and age far more than your top line growth. So it needs to be sales. It needs to be marketing. If you’ve got ops teams, they need to be there too. It doesn’t need to be far more than that. You can start to bring in others, like CEOs, but those are the fundamental components and players who should have their seat at the table. And I think the only thing I’d add there is this is dynamic. Right? The market is changing, and you need to be refining it consistently. It’s an iterative process. And so fully agree with you. Right? Marketing owns that market with close collaboration between sales and CS in terms of a feedback loop but just making sure that you’re keeping a pulse on how it looks different, even quarter to quarter, but definitely year to year. I try and do it quarter to quarter. But look, candidly, as a business reached us when, you know, from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty one, the growth at all cost days. We only sold to b to b software companies. I include, like, cyber, clouds, subsaaS, within that. That was our ICP. That is a big segment of the market that got heavily impacted for reasons we don’t need to go into now. So we’re like, hang on a second. Our ideal customer profile as we once knew it, it needs updating. We need to diversify a bit more. One of the other industry verticals that perhaps have not been as impacted But if we lost sales, like, who are ICP is, who should we be selling to now, it would probably be like, no, just enterprise SaaS companies. Was that due to your tap? It’s like, whoa, okay. That’s really reasonable all of a sudden. Marketing with the one saying, well, hang on a second. We’ve seen these signals from manufacturing. From logistics, from consultancy businesses, and we’re seeing intense signals. We’re seeing actually a bit more inbound, which we’re rejecting because they weren’t part of our ICP. We wanna take a look at that. And off the back of that, because marketing driving it, we built a squad that was actually designed to break into new verticals, I mean, I think I would have done this if I was just in sales. I’d be like, no, no, no, no, no, we know our customers, we know these guys, they they say we’re gonna keep selling to marketing them, the ones going, Yeah. But look over here. And rev ops then start digging into the data. And now we’re selling to, like, three other industry verticals that we weren’t selling to you before, and we’re only selling to ones that are in market So it’s not as risky, very, very different exercise. So our ICP has now evolved tremendously because of that. Of those verticals. Now are there any that when you found them, the data said, well, we should be over here. You saw the amount. We’d wow. I would have, like, looking at it now, like, I would have never thought that our product was a fit in this particular vertical. And now you’re closing deals regularly or anything really crazy or interesting that stands out? I thought that manufacturing was, like, really, really old school. The reason why SaaS companies were buying reached us, like, there was no tomorrow is because I feel like they have a level of maturity of adopting technology processes and have built businesses in a different way that it just made more sense. One of the things that we look at is, like, technographics. Once we started spotting the technographics of, like, okay, with Reachdesk, we integrate with tools like SalesLoft Outreach, but you got six cents with HubSpot, Marketo, We started seeing a surge in, like, intent data as well as technographics. And I was like, hang on a second. Why are manufacturing companies buying sales engagement platforms and investing in ABM, what’s going on there? I thought they were sort of in the dark ages, like, decades behind the pack, and actually I’ve learned is that it’s been a real heightened state of majority there. And actually, people are hiring people that been in b to b SaaS to go and run manufacturing sales teams. Because they’re trying to upgrade. So I was like, this doesn’t make any sense to me. This is, like, totally, totally new. And against what I believe that that industry was out in terms because I thought it was always just gonna be an old school industry and actually it’s had a digital transformation that’s fueled it is because guess what? Is done really, really well over the past couple of years, and there’s more money in it. Next thing I know, I’m like, hey, let’s invest more of our time there. And it’s working as well. It’s working really well. I remember one of our BDRs when we put them on in this squad. They were like, hey, I’ve had five times as many connect calls with the manufacturing companies I’ve had with a SaaS company. Oh, right. It’s because the CMO at the SaaS company has been called called by everyone and has got everything on their phones to try and block it out. The manufacturing guys are like, hey, yeah, we’ll speak. And so it’s actually made it easy for us. We have a question that we like to ask every guest, and it’s what is the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever had to do in your career, either if it asked to do, forced to do, and it could be something negative or it could be something positive. We’ve gotten some stories around sun setting a product in fifteen days to a hundred customers to smuggling swag cross borders. What kind of stands out in your mind is, like, it was wild and crazy and maybe had a positive outcome or maybe had a negative outcome. It’s a very good question. I love that, by the way. I think the craziest thing I’ve ever had to do in my career is start a company as a founder, but maybe let’s let’s not talk about that. That’s fair. I think building in stealth mode, if I’m honest with you, the first two years of our business, no one knew what we were doing. Maybe it’s not a crazy thing in in and of itself, but There are two parts to it. At the beginning, I said, right. I’m gonna build a business and I want it to be born account based. Alright. We’re not gonna do loads of branding and, like, drive organic traffic or anything like that, and he’s gonna be account based from day one, and here’s our ICP. They’re like, we don’t have any customers. You know, I mean, my three founders been like, What? How do you know? I was like, because I know. Alright? And we’re gonna build these products that are specifically designed for account based marketers and for these types of personas. They’re like, we haven’t even interviewed. I could see, like, them starting to be fearful of, like, why did we ask this guy to start this company with us because that we’re gonna do account based from day one. Because normally what you do as a founder is that you try and build every hack to try and not spend money and build as much buzz as possible. I was like, no. No. No. Here’s the best part. We’re gonna do it in stealth mode. We don’t want anyone to know we really exist, and then we’re gonna explode. Now, like, Oh my god. What are you thinking? But actually, I think it worked because about a year and a half in, when we really started putting stuff out there, people were like, where did you come from? And I was like, oh, yeah. We’ve been doing this. I’m wearing, like, five million in ARR. They were like, what? Then how long? Like, like, two years from, like, zero, no product to, like, five minute. It sounds nothing now. It’s bigger business, and I’m sure you guys are far bigger, but it’s like that stealth account base that’s do it. Very differently, very intentionally without spending too much and really, like, backing ourselves on who we’re gonna be selling to before product market fit was, like, a bit nerve wracking. And I remember them saying, you do realize if it doesn’t work. It’s your fault. I was like No pressure there. Wow. Yeah. You know, I’ve done the zero to fifteen journey, and I could not imagine at least on the first part, the stealth I don’t know. Like, do all this, but don’t tell anyone. Or keep it quiet. That that actually gives me a little bit of anxiety even now. Just thinking about it. So that’s, That’s a really good, really good answer. So building himself, I like that. Thanks so much, Alex. Great conversation. I feel what I’m taking away from this is the conviction and placing big bets and sticking towards them and making it happen. So very cool stuff. Thank you. Great perspective too. Right? You know, that’s not something you see very often. You get the founder. You get the CRO hat. You got a great marketing hat. You wear a lot of hats, but you wear the well. So I really appreciate the insights. Oh, I appreciate it. I’ve loved this a lot, guys. Thank you for having me. Yeah. It is a bit unconventional because you usually get the founder who wants to be the CEO, but I’m obsessed with sales and marketing. Those are the two hats I will always wear. But I’ve loved being on this. Thank you for pushing me on some of this stuff. You’ve also made me realize that probably get to more trouble than I should do. Thanks. Take care. You’ve been listening to revenue Do you have a revenue project you were asked to execute that had wild success? Share your story with us at six cents dot com slash revenue. We might just ask you to come on the show. And if you don’t wanna miss the next episode, be sure to follow along on your favorite podcast app.